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	<title>Comments on: Android Priests</title>
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	<link>http://john.mignault.net/blog/2010/07/12/android-priests/</link>
	<description>Drawing diabetic comics-reading pen-fetishizing cycling leftist geek librarian. God, how bourgeois.</description>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Rochkind</title>
		<link>http://john.mignault.net/blog/2010/07/12/android-priests/comment-page-1/#comment-3893</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Rochkind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jul 2010 05:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://john.mignault.net/blog/?p=373#comment-3893</guid>
		<description>I seriously doubt that it&#039;s because of programmers not trying hard enough, as you suggest, to protect their jobs. It&#039;s because it&#039;s a legitimately Hard Problem. After all, it&#039;s programmers who write those attempts at high-level abstraction layers, and those programmers generally do so because they think it&#039;s a really Neat Idea that they want to see succeed (and of course, those programmers writing such things aren&#039;t going to be out of a job if those things catch on, they&#039;ll still need to be written and maintained). &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s because it&#039;s just plain hard.  Simplicity and Flexibility often competing pulls. To make something that is both very very simple, and so flexible as to be used to create solutions to real unpredictable problems... it&#039;s legitimately hard. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But the driving principle of programming language evolution is increased simplicity with flexibility.  PHP is a lot more accessible than, say, writing assembly language on punchcards as a programmer in the 1960s did.  Programmers too want to make things simpler while still flexible, because that&#039;s a lot more powerful a tool and allows the programmer to do a lot more in the same amount of time. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I predict that even with the most accessible tool though, doing complicated things will take the kind of analytical logical thinking that good programmers (not all programmers are good programmers) specialize in, and that not everyone has &#039;naturally&#039;.  Good programmers don&#039;t worry about being put out of a job due to easier to use tools, because they know easier to use tools might make current &#039;complicated&#039; problems easier, but will put current &#039;infeasible&#039; problems into the &#039;complicated&#039; category and people will still want to tackle those. (Imagine trying to write Windows 2000 in assembley language on punchcards! Impossible.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I seriously doubt that it&#39;s because of programmers not trying hard enough, as you suggest, to protect their jobs. It&#39;s because it&#39;s a legitimately Hard Problem. After all, it&#39;s programmers who write those attempts at high-level abstraction layers, and those programmers generally do so because they think it&#39;s a really Neat Idea that they want to see succeed (and of course, those programmers writing such things aren&#39;t going to be out of a job if those things catch on, they&#39;ll still need to be written and maintained). </p>
<p>It&#39;s because it&#39;s just plain hard.  Simplicity and Flexibility often competing pulls. To make something that is both very very simple, and so flexible as to be used to create solutions to real unpredictable problems&#8230; it&#39;s legitimately hard. </p>
<p>But the driving principle of programming language evolution is increased simplicity with flexibility.  PHP is a lot more accessible than, say, writing assembly language on punchcards as a programmer in the 1960s did.  Programmers too want to make things simpler while still flexible, because that&#39;s a lot more powerful a tool and allows the programmer to do a lot more in the same amount of time. </p>
<p>I predict that even with the most accessible tool though, doing complicated things will take the kind of analytical logical thinking that good programmers (not all programmers are good programmers) specialize in, and that not everyone has &#39;naturally&#39;.  Good programmers don&#39;t worry about being put out of a job due to easier to use tools, because they know easier to use tools might make current &#39;complicated&#39; problems easier, but will put current &#39;infeasible&#39; problems into the &#39;complicated&#39; category and people will still want to tackle those. (Imagine trying to write Windows 2000 in assembley language on punchcards! Impossible.)</p>
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		<title>By: jmignault</title>
		<link>http://john.mignault.net/blog/2010/07/12/android-priests/comment-page-1/#comment-3892</link>
		<dc:creator>jmignault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 00:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://john.mignault.net/blog/?p=373#comment-3892</guid>
		<description>No, exactly the opposite. It&#039;s the programmer who&#039;s endlessly fascinated by handset OSes. My point being that the people for whom AppInventor is a great thing already have Android handsets, and are already programmers, so AppInventor is irrelevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, exactly the opposite. It&#39;s the programmer who&#39;s endlessly fascinated by handset OSes. My point being that the people for whom AppInventor is a great thing already have Android handsets, and are already programmers, so AppInventor is irrelevant.</p>
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		<title>By: banerjek</title>
		<link>http://john.mignault.net/blog/2010/07/12/android-priests/comment-page-1/#comment-3891</link>
		<dc:creator>banerjek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 23:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://john.mignault.net/blog/?p=373#comment-3891</guid>
		<description>&quot;End users don’t want to be able to build Android apps. They want to be able to build iOS apps.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And I would have thought that if end users wanted to build apps, they&#039;d want to build them for the phone they have rather than for a particular OS. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I guess that now that people don&#039;t have to constantly tinker with their cars to make them work (thereby rendering pointless the incessant and useless automotive debates over whether Chevy, Mopar, or Ford is best), the consumer now is captivated by the fascinating world of handset OSes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;End users don’t want to be able to build Android apps. They want to be able to build iOS apps.&#8221;</p>
<p>And I would have thought that if end users wanted to build apps, they&#39;d want to build them for the phone they have rather than for a particular OS. </p>
<p>I guess that now that people don&#39;t have to constantly tinker with their cars to make them work (thereby rendering pointless the incessant and useless automotive debates over whether Chevy, Mopar, or Ford is best), the consumer now is captivated by the fascinating world of handset OSes.</p>
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		<title>By: jmignault</title>
		<link>http://john.mignault.net/blog/2010/07/12/android-priests/comment-page-1/#comment-3889</link>
		<dc:creator>jmignault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 06:00:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://john.mignault.net/blog/?p=373#comment-3889</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it will either. I&#039;m glad to see eforts in that direction as well, and I sometimes wonder why they all do eventually fail. Why is it we can&#039;t get really high-level abstraction layers onto coding that would enable non-developers to make apps? Is it that programmers can see the inevitability of disintermediation in every profession but their own? Isn&#039;t the &quot;No, I will not fix your computer&quot; t-shirt really a rather smug comment about job security?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#39;t think it will either. I&#39;m glad to see eforts in that direction as well, and I sometimes wonder why they all do eventually fail. Why is it we can&#39;t get really high-level abstraction layers onto coding that would enable non-developers to make apps? Is it that programmers can see the inevitability of disintermediation in every profession but their own? Isn&#39;t the &#8220;No, I will not fix your computer&#8221; t-shirt really a rather smug comment about job security?</p>
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		<title>By: jmignault</title>
		<link>http://john.mignault.net/blog/2010/07/12/android-priests/comment-page-1/#comment-3890</link>
		<dc:creator>jmignault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://john.mignault.net/blog/?p=373#comment-3890</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m saying that just the fact that you even know that there&#039;s a web service or two that you want to interact with means that you&#039;re not the kind of end user this is supposedly meant for. The kind of thing you&#039;re describing would make sense if this was meant as scripting for Android.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m saying that just the fact that you even know that there&#39;s a web service or two that you want to interact with means that you&#39;re not the kind of end user this is supposedly meant for. The kind of thing you&#39;re describing would make sense if this was meant as scripting for Android.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Rochkind</title>
		<link>http://john.mignault.net/blog/2010/07/12/android-priests/comment-page-1/#comment-3888</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Rochkind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://john.mignault.net/blog/?p=373#comment-3888</guid>
		<description>This is definitely not the first time someone has tried to create a way for non-programmers to program. From Hypercard on one end to the various &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Visual programming languages&quot;&lt;/a&gt; on the other. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Some of these have been somewhat succesful, although usually either by ending up tricking the developer into becoming a programmer after all (Hypercard), or by limiting themselves to a very specific domain (Lego Robolab; perhaps Yahoo Pipes fits in that category too?). &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s an interesting thing to try to do, create a software construction environment for non-programmers, glad to see efforts in that direction. But whether it ends up finding a userbase or not, I&#039;d bet the farm that it will NOT change &quot;Programming as We Know It,&quot; anymore than the others did. (Although some people might argue that Hypercard _did_, heh.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is definitely not the first time someone has tried to create a way for non-programmers to program. From Hypercard on one end to the various &#8220;<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language" rel="nofollow">Visual programming languages&#8221;</a> on the other. </p>
<p>Some of these have been somewhat succesful, although usually either by ending up tricking the developer into becoming a programmer after all (Hypercard), or by limiting themselves to a very specific domain (Lego Robolab; perhaps Yahoo Pipes fits in that category too?). </p>
<p>It&#39;s an interesting thing to try to do, create a software construction environment for non-programmers, glad to see efforts in that direction. But whether it ends up finding a userbase or not, I&#39;d bet the farm that it will NOT change &#8220;Programming as We Know It,&#8221; anymore than the others did. (Although some people might argue that Hypercard _did_, heh.)</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://john.mignault.net/blog/2010/07/12/android-priests/comment-page-1/#comment-3887</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 03:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://john.mignault.net/blog/?p=373#comment-3887</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The intended audience for AppInventor- the end users – don’t need or want it either.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;On what do you base this assertion? I&#039;m an Android user (though more developer-oriented than most), and I&#039;d really like to able to have a quick way to interact with a web service or two. Not sure if AppInventor will scratch that itch, but it&#039;s not to say it&#039;s not there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The intended audience for AppInventor- the end users – don’t need or want it either.</p></blockquote>
<p>On what do you base this assertion? I&#39;m an Android user (though more developer-oriented than most), and I&#39;d really like to able to have a quick way to interact with a web service or two. Not sure if AppInventor will scratch that itch, but it&#39;s not to say it&#39;s not there.</p>
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